KILL SCREEN 039: For Andy Gibbs of THOU, Gaming Hits Close to Home

Photo by Hillarie Jason

On May 20, 2024, New Orleans sludge outfit Thou released a surprise full-album stream of their latest LP Umbilical. The real surprise? The tracks were available via a demo for Silenus, an upcoming game developed by indie studio Geography of Robots and described as “short, atmospheric narrative adventure” in which you “uncover the secrets of an oil refinery operated by an obscure organization.” Though the connection may be less than evident for many readers, those familiar with either the recent point-and-click renaissance, the geographical history of the band or the musical output of guitarist Andy Gibbs know the association can be traced back to one word: Norco. The 2022 indie darling that turned the heads of those inside and outside typical gaming spheres has you playing Kay, a woman in search of her missing brother after the death of her estranged mother in a futuristic-yet-not-unfamiliar version of the titular Southern Louisiana town, located just 30 minutes away from the band’s home base. During an interview with Lore Zine, Gibbs explains how his friendship with lead developer—going by the pseudonym Yuts—resulted in a contribution of Thou song “View of a Burning City” as well as an original composition to the game’s final soundtrack, a collaboration with main composer Gewgawly I. Years later, the bond between Thou and Geography of Robots seems stronger than ever.

But what of the guitarist’s personal relationship with video games? While the print edition of this interview in dB238/August 2024 goes into more detail, Gibbs is noticeably more guarded. Often finding himself stuck in older console generations either my circumstance or by choice, he classifies himself as a retro gamer with a modest but rock-solid list of NES and SNES titles that warrant repeated visits, even as he enters his 40s. With a surprise wealth of time starting in 2020, however—no reason, really—the Nintendo Switch’s online library of games opened the gateway for him to enter the 21st century of interactive media. While we wait for a Switch port of Norco as well as the official release date for Silenus, Kill Screen is eager to uncover everything about Gibbs’ gaming past and, fingers crossed, future.

What was your first gaming experience?
I guess that I can remember would be arcade. We’re talking, like, probably late ’80s. I remember seeing the original Donkey Kong in an arcade in the mall. There also was a pizza place about a mile from my house that had the tabletop Galaga. I remember that very fondly, but that was just really being a little kid and kind of watching stuff. I didn’t get a Nintendo or any system until much later, but my dad finally shelled out for an Atari in 1990, maybe? Maybe even ’89. I was, like, one generation behind every system that came out, basically. So, you know—Asteroids, Pole Position, all that stuff, Pac-Man, Pitfall. And then I finally got an NES from my sister’s boyfriend, who had just got an SNES, so he passed it down to me. I was playing [Super] Mario [Bros.] 1 when all my other friends were getting into Street Fighter II and Super Mario World. [Laughs] I was keeping up with all the stuff going on, but I was always one generation behind the times, which I think maybe that factors into my love of retro games to this day.

Did you feel that sense of being behind when you were a kid and getting into games or did it just feel natural?
It felt natural actually until [guitarist] Matthew [Thudium] and I met our other guitarist [KC Stafford]. He had an NES and I still had an Atari and I was like, Oh, damn. Actually, a very formative experience in our friendship: I went to pre-K and his mom was the pre-K teacher. He would be there after school, staying late with the rest of us who had to stay late and he had a Nintendo that they would bring to the building. While we’re waiting for our parents to get off work or whatever, I’d watch kids play the first couple of Zeldas and Super Mario 3. That’s when I realized, Oh, wow, it’d be so sick to play this at home, but I’m going home to play Fortress. Ancient, ancient technology. [Laughs]

What are you playing now and what do you typically prefer to play?
Well, things have been crazy. I haven’t really been able to game much lately. I’ve been playing NBA 2K right now, [laughs] which is weird because I’m not a sports guy. First sports game I’ve ever bought, actually. I was like, I’m 41. I’m going through changes, man. [Laughs] Trying to figure it out.

Why start with NBA 2K? Why now?
I knew I wanted to try a basketball game. I actually hadn’t owned a basketball game since NBA Jam, which I didn’t own until 1996 or 1998 or whatever it was. [Laughs] During quarantine, I downloaded a million ROMs so I could play old games. I kind of got back into gaming during COVID. Playing NBA Jam, I was like, Man, this is so primitive. I can’t believe I used to think this gaming engine was advanced. I bet you now it’s crazy advanced. So I was like, Let me just check out what’s out there. And then I watched a couple of videos of what 2K looked like and I was like, Oh my god! I mean, I’m playing it on Switch, so it’s not exactly realistic looking, but the controls, there’s a lot going on.

So, I’ve been playing that lately, but I need to get back into Tears of the Kingdom because I started it in earnest when it came out—pre-ordered it and everything—and I got maybe 25% of the way through, super into it. And then I took a break and I haven’t gone back in earnest, so that’s next on my list. I’m also due for a revisit of one of, like, the four or five games that I revisit every couple of years, which is like Chrono Trigger, I actually just finished Final Fantasy VI for the millionth time last year, Final Fantasy I, I always go back to. I’m almost always playing one of those games at some point.

You’ve expressed a fondness for the Switch. What is it about this particular console?
When lockdown hit and I got all the ROMs, I was delving back into games I played as a kid and games I wanted to play as a kid. And so naturally, just because I grew up with an SNES and an NES, I was going back to Nintendo games. And then that got me thinking, I heard a bunch of these games you can just have on the Switch and you can just play them on your TV. I got a Switch mainly so I could play the old games because I heard a bunch of them were readily available. I wasn’t even going to play anything new. It was kind of a weird moment. I was like, Am I really going to buy a video game system? Because I got it in my head that if I bought a video game system that it would detract from how much time I was spending on music. This is why I haven’t gotten a PS5 or any of that shit so I can play the big games everyone’s playing, because I’m like, I’m never going to work on music if I’m just using all my leisure time for video games. It was kind of a work-life balance thing, even though, of course, what happened? I ended up buying Breath of the Wild and spending untold hours playing that, I ended up burning through, like, two seasons on 2K in no time, I ended up getting Tears of the Kingdom the day it came out. It wasn’t totally successful, but I am still scared of getting a PS5 and getting, like, I don’t know, Elden Ring or whatever the fuck people play.

It sounds like you kind of checked out for a few years before jumping back in with the Switch. What was the point that you stepped away and was there any particular reason that you stepped away or is it just time commitments?
Purely practical. I moved away and got rid of all of my things, basically. When I was 20, 21, my music life picked up in a big way, right when we started Thou. Obviously when you’re in your 20s, you’ve got the arduous commitment of drinking and doing drugs all the time, hanging out with your friends. So, that was taking up most of my time. My social life and music completely overtook the time I would have had, not to mention living in places with roommates. I didn’t have a TV for, I don’t know, all of my 20s and a lot of my 30s, too, to be honest. So that was definitely both part of it. When I bought the Switch, I didn’t even have a TV for it. I had just a shitty computer monitor up until, like, last year when I finally bought a TV for the first time in my entire life. [Laughs] So, it’s just practical stuff. Every now and again, I’d be reminded to be like, Oh man, it’d be sick to go back and play some of those games, and then you gotta get a TV, you gotta get the cables, you gotta get the find NES, you gotta find the cartridges. So really, getting back into it, I realized how easy it was to get an emulator and download ROMs. I was like, Oh shit, I can just play all my favorite games right here and I’m at home anyway?

You touched upon being a retro gamer. What, to you, constitutes as “retro”? What is the cutoff?
I’m 41, so to me, in my mind, the last retro system… [Pauses] It’s hard to even say this, I’m just imagining the legions of people who are like, “You motherfucker!” But the N64, to me, is the last one. Whenever you get into the PS era, whenever you start getting discs involved, frankly… I understand in a very literal sense PS1, even PS2 and beyond, can be considered retro in the same sense that you could say that The White Stripes are classic rock because 20 years has passed since “Fell in Love With a Girl” came out. Technically, I understand those are retro systems, but for me, I was beyond a teenager or was becoming in my late teens whenever the disc-based systems were at their popularity. PS1 technically came out a little earlier than that, but to be honest, I didn’t know anyone that had a PS1 until maybe ’99 or so because they were really expensive. Most people, you got that one friend who’s the rich kid that got the new gaming system. I wasn’t friends with that kid, I guess. We had to go rent the system from Blockbuster. I remember Matthew specifically, him and his neighbor renting a Virtual Boy when it came out. I wasn’t there that weekend, but I remember we regrouped on Monday at school and I was like, “Dude, tell me all about it!” He was like, “Man, it sucked. You can’t play this thing at all. Our eyes started hurting. We ended up giving it up so we could play fighting games on that SNES instead.” [Laughs]

I went back and watched videos. You can download the games and play them on your laptop, actually, but it’s really strange the way it’s laid out. But I watched a couple playthroughs online and I was like, These graphics, even for the time are not terribly impressive, to be honest. And it’s supposed to be about the immersive experience or whatever, but people really got VR wrong, like, 20 times before getting to where we’re at now. I think VR may be the one thing that has had the steepest learning curve of getting it into a usable state, you know? And even now, I don’t know. I can’t even say with confidence that it’s in a truly enjoyable state. I haven’t tried Oculus or whatever, but it seems like it’s still got a ways to go. Or maybe no one wants it ever, really, and it’s just never going to become a thing. I don’t know.

We’ve had a couple people express a lot of excitement about VR. The only experience that I’ve [Michael] had is a little display model at Target. Immediately I was like, Absolutely not for me. [Games are] so much about the story and the experience and the gameplay and not the novelty of being in this space.
And not just that, but [for] me growing up, gaming was always a communal experience. Even if you’re not playing two player games or whatever, we used to every Saturday, me, Matthew and my friend Kyle would get together [and] we’d play Final Fantasy I. One guy would play, one guy’s got the monster map out checking the stats for the monster you’re about to hit, the other guy’s got the world map trying to figure out where you need to go next. We’d convene to play these games together all the time. Very, very communal, no matter what the game was. Having virtual reality is very confined experience. It’s a really isolating event—I say as I game alone in my house, [laughs] but still, but if I wanted to, I could have people over to game.

Do you retain any sense of that communal gaming?
No, I don’t really. It’s a solitary thing, although I talk about games with my friends and we compare notes on what we’re playing and stuff. I don’t play anything online because, eh… Maybe it’s obvious reasons, but online gaming to me, I’m just not serious enough as a gamer to play most games online. I don’t want to get called the F slur by a 14-year old. [Laughs] There’s exceptions—I’ll play Mario Kart online. I actually got pretty good at that at one time. But no, for me, it’s still pretty solitary. I’m OK with that now because for me, gaming now is kind of a way for me to actually relax and step away from being social. As my social battery shrinks, as I get older, I’m thankful for a hobby I can do alone. Whenever my partner’s out doing something, I can have that time to myself. That’s kind of nice.

I do kind of miss it. I think I enjoyed it so much because it was tied to the experience of being a kid where these games were filled with wonder and excitement and we didn’t really know how they worked exactly and figuring that out was part of the deal. You don’t know the special moves. Maybe someone’s got the Electronic Gaming Monthly or GamePro that has the moves in it. I’m okay leaving the communal experience to my youth because I have such fond memories of it.

What is it specifically about retro gaming that you prefer and where do you think that modern gaming lost its way?
I don’t know that modern gaming necessarily lost its way, but I think that for me, an element of retro gaming that’s really important to me is just the simplicity and the straightforwardness. I’m not really into the lore. I’m into the story to a point, but the gameplay is what’s fun for me. I like things that are straightforward and fairly stripped-down. [A] top three game for me is Castlevania III. There’s a lot to not love about that game because it is insanely difficult, repetitive, it does not cut you any slack at all. But there’s something about the world that’s created there. Because it’s in 8-bit, there’s a sprite in that game—it’s the skeleton with the fucking chain whip. It’s such a teenager thing to think, but the last time I replayed that game, I remember seeing the skeleton jumping around with the whip and I thought to myself, That is just so bad ass. [Laughs] It’s incapable of being realistic. The 8-bit graphics really do pull you into a world that is wholly separate from reality. It’s not trying to get into reality. Retro gaming, I prefer that style.

Whenever you get to PS1-era and beyond, the polygons and such, that’s where you start losing me. I don’t find anything romantic or intriguing about those polygon graphics. They don’t hold any retro appeal for me. They don’t speak to me. But for some reason, 8-bit pixel graphics contain a sort of mystique to me. I don’t know what it is, but that’s what appeals to me about it. And its immediacy, too. Even Castlevania III, which does have a story and which does have lore, you throw that in. You get a badass intro screen with cool music, you get some of the best music of all time—which is where you enter the code to get your game back—and then you’re playing and that’s it. Immediacy. And then you’re immediately fucking whipping skeletons. I can appreciate that. Of course, I also like Final Fantasy I with long, unskippable blocks of text at the beginning. [Laughs]

Do more modern games in that style still bring you into that space?
Yeah. There’s a game called Infernax that’s basically an updated Castlevania. It’s a Metroidvania-style thing, but the graphics are clearly very much a Castlevania nod. And I love it. It’s perfect. I don’t know if I prefer it, but the updated pixel graphics, I love how crisp they are. They really just pop out of the screen. I’m also thinking in that vein of when Mario Maker and Mario Maker 2 came out and they obviously contain the original SMB 1 through 3. And those graphics look so fucking good. I can’t describe it. I think it’s really effective. That’s a good graphic style. I’m kind of picky when it comes to graphic styles and it can kind of make or break whether I want to play a game. I really like Hollow Knight’s graphics. That’s a cool, original-looking style that’s a little different. But the more realistic it gets, the less I’m typically interested. Even though it’s really impressive, like Red Dead Redemption or whatever. Those kind of games, I can see them and be like, Wow, visually, this is like stunning. But for me, I like the graphics like Breath of the Wild, Tears of the Kingdom. I like the stylized graphics. They’re not trying to look realistic, but they’re kind of realistic. It’s not super overdone. Something about that appeals to me.

Even when you come to the current day “retro” games, like Infernax or Shovel Knight, the truly wonderful thing is that they don’t always necessarily have to work 1:1 within the limitations of an NES, especially with graphical fidelity and music capability.
Totally. The game that I have a song in and that Thou kind of helped with some music stuff for, Norco, that’s exactly it. That’s an example of 8-bit graphics [where] there’s so much done in that game that could never have been done graphic-wise, even though it’s subtle. Maybe it could have been done on an 8-bit cartridge, but it would have overheated and probably broke or something. But the music capability of that, and not just that, but the complexity of the menu system and battle system and the quickness with which you’re able to navigate it, that could never have worked on an 8-bit console back in the day. That’s another really good example of a cool “retro,” but enhanced retro graphic style that super appeals to me, especially as a point-and-clicker. I used to play a handful of those on my PC back in the day or, like, there’s a point-and-click on NES [Shadowgate]. It reminded me of that a bit—one of those “you click to inspect the item and then there’s the key” and the whole thing. I like that.

Thou contributed a song and you personally wrote a song for the game Norco. Even though the Thou song was written well before the game was ever a thing, the song that you wrote was unique to the game. What was the experience like? Were there any differences between the way that you would approach a Thou song versus the way that you would compose for something like this?
Yeah. I had a million ideas. My friend who’s the game creator [Yuts], he had mentioned he was working on this game. He sent me some very early, like, “Here’s a room,” you know? And then I was just sending him stuff. At one point I had an overworld theme and then I had, like, three or four other ones. I would create these minute long loops and just be like, “What do you think of this?”. I was just messing around with that. I had no idea what scene it was going to get used in, the one that I had sent. And honestly, the song—not unlike a Thou song—I was just fucking around in Ableton. I mean, I was doing it with the intent. I was like, I’m going to sit down and work on some more video game-style music. That’s reflected in the palette. The little drum thing is bitcrushed down to 8 bit and the synths are relatively lo-fi. I just kind of messed with it. And then he heard it and was like, “Oh, this is the scene I’m going to use that for.” And then it took on the meaning there. I would love to say that I had some grand vision or like, “Here’s the composers I was influenced by,” but honestly, I was really just fucking around.

I think subconsciously, Chrono Trigger soundtrack is my all-time forever favorite video game music. Even in Thou, I think it’s a huge influence. I know that was kicking around. I’m thinking specifically of some of the more emotional cutscenes and some of the music that gets used in that. That was definitely on my mind—ways to express emotion through that palette, but I wanted to get it less cinematic and more 8-bit, stripped-down sounding.

When you had composed some of that stuff, were you thinking, OK, I’m going to make a world theme. OK, I’m going to make a cool, spooky thing for when they go in the cave in the marshes?
Totally—which is not a very efficient way to work, I now know. But at the time I was like, Well, there’s going to be some battle music, so we’ve got to create a battle theme. It’s like, maybe there won’t be a battle theme, a battle scene, you know? That was my mindset because I thought that’s how it worked. In my mind, whenever they created Chrono Trigger, the guy was like, “Alright, first things first: I gotta get some kick-ass battle music,” you know? But maybe, I don’t know how people work.

But I think it was more like I knew I wanted to create certain moods, though. With the Norco stuff, when I started working on it, I put the first couple of elements in this overworld theme before I knew it was an overworld theme. I had a couple elements going and then I started just letting it loop over and over. And then I’m like, This could be an overworld theme. I can kind of hear it that way. And then maybe I’ll start influencing it one way or another. But yeah, it’s mostly just fucking around, just like everything else. I don’t understand how people work with any more intention than that, frankly. [Laughs]

Do you have any interest in pursuing further scoring work for video games?
Yeah, I think so. I think it would depend on what it was. I think for me, because I am into retro things and the bones of Norco as far as its gameplay and its point-and-click nature and the graphic style, I’m kind of like, OK, this is a world I understand. This is a world I can kind of wrap my mind around. I know kind of what sounds are inbounds to use for that. I think it would be a challenge for me to work outside of that on something that was a little outside of my gaming experience. But I’d be way down. I went back this past year and I listened back to a lot of the Quake music that Nine Inch Nails did and I’m like, Oh, I’m already making music that kind of fits in this world. I think it’d be a pretty easy thing for me to do something that was more on the haunting, dark, ambient side. I’m already making music like that, so it would be a pretty easy thing to do.

In this perfect world where you get to compose the soundtrack to any game you would want the next new entry, is there a specific franchise or sequel you would want to work on? If they were like, “Yeah, Chrono Trigger 2,” do you want to make the soundtrack?
No, no, no. That would be a great dishonor. Making a metal record, I’ve been doing that for, like, 20 years. I’m established in that world. I move with confidence in that sphere, right? You throw me into a situation like video game scoring, I’m new. I have a lot to learn and so I would want to take on something small and work my way. It would be an overwhelming experience to jump right into some sort of something that’s going to have a billion eyeballs. Even Norco, we didn’t know what the reception of that was going to be. It ended up being a way bigger deal than we realized it would be. I think the first thing I saw that indicated that was there was a New York Times piece about it and I was like, Oh my god, people are actually going to listen to this. They’re going to hear my song. I think I would have a ways to go with that. But it’s not out of the question.

Norco feels very specific to southern Louisiana. For lack of a better word, is there a sense of pride in seeing Louisiana being used as a set piece without just focusing on the typical New Orleans, Mardi Gras, voodoo, aspect of it?
Yeah. Man, I don’t remember the last time I felt such pride, actually, because having the story of this place told by people that live here and grew up here is so important and I think it’s something that’s really been sorely lacking in media in general. I think especially New Orleans in specific is ripe for people from elsewhere to come down here and then report back what they saw. It’s almost like a Gonzo type of journalism where they come down and see how fucked up it is, and then they go back up and they’re like, “Yeah, can you believe how these people live? But oh, they have such resilience! Wow, so much character!” Norco, in my mind, is honestly the first accurate depiction of southern Louisiana life because it doesn’t completely strip away the romanticism—it shows you that the romanticism and the deep, deep problems that we face are actually completely inseparable. And that actually is what contributes to making this an insanely beautiful place. The way that people are forced to struggle against the more devious forces that are at play down here, like the oil companies and such, all of that is mixed up.

What you usually see is a very sanitized versions of peoples’ ideas of what is cool about South Louisiana or New Orleans in general. But I like that Norco doesn’t shy away from either aspect. It shows you the opulence of New Orleans. It shows you all the classic New Orleans kind of things you would want to hear about, but it doesn’t shy away from all the ugliness. And also I like that it’s not just New Orleans-centric. Because the creator’s from Norco, it’s a perspective that’s not often heard of people who kind of grow up in the shadows of these cities and live in the more like rural areas. Those are voices that don’t usually get heard. And even just the general politics of the game—or the perceived politics of the game itself—is something that is still pretty recent, I feel. Not only does the story get told accurately, but through a lens that I can agree with.

But it’s also just cool as hell. The creator of the game, I’ve known him for something like 20 years and a lot of the stuff in the game is just like, I know some of the people in the game. I know the places in the game. This is part of my community, is what it feels like. It’s so cool not just to see the place that I live get represented, but the community that I came up in gets represented also in the game. It’s just one of the coolest fucking things that I can think that’s happened in my general social circle in, like, a zillion years, honestly. I could probably talk all day about it.

It’s also finally a very accurate depiction of weather anxiety down here, which I think is another thing that’s very misunderstood by people. People are very quick to be like, “Hurricane Katrina, like, what’s up with that?” But without realizing that’s just every year for us, another bout of that anxiety. The way that the characters deal with the grief of that, I just thought it was really poignant and just really accurate. I think it’s really important for people to see it and digest it. The game’s cool because it actually kind of makes you not only digest it, but interact with it and make choices within it to where you almost get the experience of going through it. I think that’s a really cool lens to do this through. Lots of Katrina media is very much like, “Look at what happened to these poor people,” or it’s very instructive and telling you “Here is what happened,” instead of walking you through it, which is what Norco does. I think that’s really cool.

Norco talks about climate catastrophe, disaster capitalism and very heady topics. Do you see video games as being a medium for awareness or, even a step further, for activism? Or are they always going to be kind of limited by an expected entertainment factor?
I think that there is an expected entertainment factor, but I think that video games have undergone a democratization, much like music has undergone in the sense that they’re easier to make than they used to be and, even better, they’re easier to get in front of people’s eyeballs. However, of course, it faces the same problem as music, whereas if anyone can do it, that means everyone’s going to do it and it’s so hard to fight for visibility in that world. I don’t keep up enough to really know, but I feel like it’s inevitable that there’s a trend of more politically-minded games and more conscious games that fall more into the realm of honestly political art more so than a traditional gaming experience.

But I think it’s important to remember with Norco that Norco has so many moments that are just straight up so funny and fun amidst the commentary and amidst the hellworld. The battle system is interesting and fun. There’s a million jokes and even more in-jokes, too. So, I think that those two things can definitely coexist. The entertainment factor doesn’t have to be limiting in the same way that political music doesn’t have to always be somber and serious and can be joyful or celebratory, you know? But I would assume we’re going to see more of that if nothing else because, I didn’t play it, but Disco Elysium, I think that’s the watershed moment for people being like, “Oh yeah, you can do shit like this.” I just assume there’s a million more games with that mindset that are being developed right now. And they’re all going to need soundtracks. Am I right, guys? [Laughs]

As a 41-year old playing video games, are you more interested in what the indie community has to offer in terms of these more outsider experiences, or do you still look for that relaxing disconnect and drift more toward the AAA titles?
I think because I look to music for meaning and that’s where my deep thoughts occur—that and staring out the window aimlessly—I think I am mostly interested in gaming as a disconnect. But I think that’s what’s cool about Norco: It taught me that maybe I’m more open to it being poignant than I thought. The thing is I know I would have a transformative experience playing any number of these cerebral indie games. I’m sure. But to me, it feels like a huge world to dive into that. I’m like, this is going to be a whole experience. It’s like when you first get into a certain genre of music or a band. I recently went back to the Autechre discography and I was like, Oh yeah, I remember this group being cool. And then I look, their discography has, like, 40 records going back to 1992 or whatever and I’m like, How am I going to deal with this? It’s what it feels like. It’s very daunting to think about wading through and finding the good stuff. Games like that are a real investment. Even if they’re not long, it requires some emotional involvement and that can be a taxing experience. It’s sort of like whenever a band comes out with an 80-minute album, where you’re like, Alright, let me just wait ’til I’m in the right headspace to do this.

What are some of the games that you’re looking forward to, if anything?
Looking forward to? No. I couldn’t even tell you what’s coming out. I still have a backlog. I gotta go back and finish Tears of the Kingdom. I can’t do anything until I do that and another playthrough of all my favorites. [Laughs]

What’s next on the favorites list?
It’s gonna be Final Fantasy 1. I’m mad that there’s not a good pixel remaster of that. There’s an enhanced version that looks like fucking SNES graphics or something. That’s not what I’m doing. It’s gonna be a full Final Fantasy 1 playthrough, which is gonna be arduous and hellish and probably take me a million years. I gotta think really hard about what party I’m gonna do it with because it needs to be something interesting this time.

And you need to survive the Marsh Cave, because it’s fucking brutally difficult.
Yeah, it took me years to get past that. I didn’t realize how much game was even after that. I was like, This is so hard, it must be a short game and we’re almost at the end. But no, it’s hellish. [Laughs]

Umbilical is available now via Sacred Bones Records and can be ordered here.
Wishlist Silenus on Steam here.
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